My morning so far

[charamei]

So while fact-checking for NaNoWriMo, I stumbled across the random tidbit that Socrates and Alcibiades were lovers while both were adults (generally frowned upon in Athens).

Which raises all sorts of interesting questions, most notably: how the hell did they decide who was on top? This is a Big Question in Classical Athens; it was all about dominance, power and masculinity. And the people arguing in this instance would have been Socrates, the goddamned Father of Modern Discourse, who's like a toddler that just keeps going 'But whyyyyyyy?', and... Alcibiades. The psycho/sociopath (I did my research, Sherlock, promise) who finagled his way all around the Mediterranean, switched sides a gazillion times, manipulated and lied and cheated and lisped.

Can you imagine the rows? Never mind the sex, they probably spent weeks just debating who got to be on top first!

So naturally, I dug deeper.

Further digging reveals that they were also a pederastic pair which presumably continued into Alcibiades' adulthood, past the point where it would normally have stopped. Which makes more sense, at least. And less arguments, especially as it then transpires that Socrates wasn't interested in pederasty in the usual way:

And so it was that Alcibiades, although he was pampered from the very first, and was prevented by the companions who sought only to please him from giving ear to one who would instruct and train him, nevertheless, through the goodness of his parts, at last saw all that was in Socrates, and clave to him, putting away his rich and famous lovers. [3] And speedily, from choosing such an associate, and giving ear to the words of a lover who was in the chase for no unmanly pleasures, and begged no kisses and embraces, but sought to expose the weakness of his soul and rebuke his vain and foolish pride, “He crouched, though warrior bird, like slave, with drooping wings.”
”And he came to think that the work of Socrates was really a kind of provision of the gods for the care and salvation of youth. [4] Thus, by despising himself, admiring his friend, loving that friend's kindly solicitude and revering his excellence, he insensibly acquired an “image of love,” as Plato says,2 “to match love,” and all were amazed to see him eating, exercising, and tenting with Socrates,3 while he was harsh and stubborn with the rest of his lovers. Some of these he actually treated with the greatest insolence, as, for example, Anytus, the son of Anthemion.
- Plutarch, Life of Alcibiades 4.2-4

And suddenly we have 'possibly they were doing it, possibly they never did it but everyone Just Assumed because that's What you Do', and hi, I'm asexual, would Socrates like to play?

Alcibiades: known man-whore.
Socrates: I think one reference to a wife and kids, in Plato's Apology? So maybe he was just boring ol' straight; there must have been a few of those around. However, marriage != [sexual] love in Greece, not in the slightest, and I can think of plenty of arguments that could have convinced socially-responsible-unto-death Socrates that he had to have children even if he didn't really want to.

I am... not quite suggesting that Socrates was asexual, I tihnk that's a massive leap of logic to make based on how little we know of the real man (and as I said, being straight/not ephebophiliac, while culturally unusual, isn't out of the realms of possibility). But however you want to spin Socrates, that relationship must have had an extremely interesting dynamic, and is RPS still squicky if it (a) exists on the historical record, and (b) happened over two thousand years ago?

It is... extremely tempting to scrap all pretense of historical neutrality, move Miasma forwards in time 30 years, and use these two as my philosopher/apprentice. Unfortunately, this would make the plot totally contradict reality in, oh, about a billion more ways than it currently does... not that there's any historical record of Athens being swallowed up by a poisonous smog for nearly a year, but whatever.

Mostly what this proves, however, is that I (a) am a massive nerd and (b) have too much free time at work right now.

(Oh, and at some point along the way I misread 'love of boys' as 'love of buoys' and became extremely confused.)

Comments

[senmut]

I had never come across that reference, but, admittedly, I studied more about a later philosopher than Socrates.

[charamei]

I admit it's been a while since I read the Apology, and I tend to get lawcourt speeches mixed up, so I might be confusing it with some other random trial - but I think it's something along the lines of 'I'm not bringing my wife and kids here to cry in the corner and make you feel sorry for me, I'm doing this honestly' - which simultaneously tells us that (a) pity tactics were quite common in the Athenian courts and (b) Socrates was known to have children and could have used them to this end if he wanted.

Assuming that it was Socrates.

I guess this means the Apology goes back on my reading pile XD

[curuchamion]

...dude. EDUCATIONAL. (I was going to study Greek and Roman philosophers at some point, but wound up in geology instead - it's a long story. Involving a detour through home repair and a flirtation with quantum mechanics which derailed because I am Not Creative At Math. yeah.)

[charamei]

...OH MY GOD I DID CLASSICS AND HAVE ALWAYS WANTED TO DO GEOLOGY AS SOON AS I CAN AFFORD ANOTHER DEGREE. Are you my long-lost twin or something?

[curuchamion]

POSSIBLY. :D That would make at least three long-lost ace mind!twins I've found on the internet... wow. O_O

GEOLOGY! *draws sparkly hearts*

[charamei]

Doesn't lend much weight to the theory that asexuals aren't all the same person, does it? :P (Man, I wish I had my 'We are Caito' icon from F_W over here.)

Geology indeed!